Curse

Hugh Manatee · Mar 12, 2010, 05:35 PM // 17:35

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Originally Posted by Daesu

...Mass weakness is easy, you can take enfeebling blood at the cost of only 1e, 8s recharge or "You are all weaklings!" if you can spare a pve slot. I can also take any condition inflicting spells with Epidemic. The advantage of these skills over withering is you can inflict it from range at an instant and unstrippable since they are not enchantments. You dont need to run to each of these targets to inflict conditions as a caster. With AP, their recharge is not a problem.

Withering has a 3 sec recharge, it gets stripped, it gets put back instantly. Also, warriors don't do damage from the back line, they do it up front, about as much as a discord caller can put out probably. As said, you take the place of the vanguard sin in this team, the little front line thing that the monsters agro around so they don't charge the backline, it's just that you kick way, way more ass then the 'sin in a can'. You can knoclock the whole mob if you pull right, between crude, whirling and cyclone axe you should be able to at least get weakness everywhere with any weapon(and you have many other condistions in your arsenal) and let the AI casters discord, MoP, blood bond, hex or nuke as they see fit(i take a mes hench and herta/kai or cynn/argo or other nuker if they're available, always). You just have to keep stuff on the ground and keep SY! up(if you even need it)

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As a caster you also have a much wider range of hexes than just asuran scan and a higher energy pool/energy regen to support them.

I don't need any other hexes, just scan and whatever the henchmen/heroes have(blood bond, barbs, mop, putrid bile, whatever the mes hench has lots of options). Also, I don't think people realize how awesome auspicious blow is now... 7-8 energy every 5 hits, less with FGJ, crude and inspirational speech in your party. I could probably run grasping earth if I had to, but I've never had to, scan is enough.

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It is easier and probably faster to inflict conditions and hexes on a target as a caster than a warrior. Why pick a 3-heroes build that works best on a caster and try to fit it in for your warrior? Sure, you can force the square peg into a round hole but it will never fit tightly. A warrior should use a more suitable 3-heroes build that plays on his strengths rather than his weaknesses....You are already trying to change discordway into something more warrior friendly.

As the topic said, WARRIOR WITH A DISCORD TEAM, not give a warrior caster skills and shoehorn it into a discord caller and watch it have energy problems like you're doing. Every class can apply conditions pretty much equally well. The discord team posted on the wiki has so much defense because casters are glass cannons. Without that vanguard sin and minion chaff to KD and distract agro, the mob will charge in the middle of your guys and start taking your castes apart. With a war in front spamming SY you can drop most that crap for offense and melee support like:

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Like I said, Splinter Weapon+Strength of Honor, Blood Bond, hold aggro and nuke probably works better for a warrior than inflict hex/inflict condition/discord, one target at a time.

^None of those things are elites, and each can be put on a necro, even if as a secondary, my heroes right now have pretty much all that stuff on their bars, AND discord AND they know how and when to use it with minimal interference from me(i just have to manually get SoH and inspirational between fights, sometimes micro a prot or heal). Pve necroes can run them easily with their secondaries. As said above, put a few points in death(9-11base, then rune boosted), drop the over defensive stuff and put in melee support and go tearassing all around tyria.

You pull em, scan the first guy, put them on the ground with conditions, they blow it up with discord+splinter+pulverizing+crude swing, then while that's recharging they go to work with their other hexes/nukes/support skills and the mob is still on the ground. Then by the time it's recharged, everything is either weakened, on fire, diseased, bleeding wounded or poisoned or all of the above and since blood bond is an AoE hex and I roll with the mes hench and most mobs have enchants of some sort pretty much everything is eligible to get hit by the second salvo of discord, if not, scan and kill.

I did most of this before they went and broke roj, sos, aotl and such, it still works since they haven't nerfed discord itself(if it aint broke, don't fix it...). Back then, spiteful wasn't hurting enough with my scan+hammer fetish(stuff on the ground doesn't do much), i didn't need a defense elite on the healing n/rt(i had been using icy veins instead of a resto elite), and jaggs wasn't necessary in the areas I was squishing so I just set all the sabway guys elites to discord, tweaked the MM away from a bomber, kept the rest of the bars with mostly the same melee support modifications I made and it worked, and it's flexible enough to be tweaked on the fly.

syphonus · Mar 12, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

The argument that Discord is as efficient on a frontliner as a caster is only made by people that haven't tried it as a caster, and just assume that they can't do it better.

There simply isn't a comparison. A caster applies both a condition and a hex in 3/4 of a second at range, followed by a 200 damage spike via Finish Him-- all while keeping the target knocklocked with YMLaD and EVAS. It is then instantly recharged when the target expires, allowing for it to be done all over again immediately. That doesn't even factor in the damage from Discord.

Consider that the purpose of a Discord team is to do as much damage as possible, in as little time possible, to a single target. This shouldn't be rocket science. To see for yourself, try using a 3-hero discord team at MoD. You'll find that your team actually deals absurdly low DPS, in comparison with spiritway or almost anything else! To put things in perspective, a single sin with no outside buffs can deal more damage than this entire team. With an AP caller 1234'ing the bastard. By a longshot.

Why does it make sense? How could a build be so insanely popular when it does shit damage?

I've already said the answer-- Discord is a spike team rather than a pressure team. Ok, you get nominal AoE pressure damage through the MM and MoP, EVAS etc. but respectively this doesn't amount to much-- considering that with a caller it takes about the same time to kill a target at half health as it takes to kill one at full health(~2 seconds).

Because it IS a spike build, you should be concentrating on furthering the spike to make it more efficient, NOT the pressure. A spike team with a bad spike is garbage, as you can already see yourself at Master of Damage. Therefore, anything that assists with making Discord spike harder and faster contributes to the build; anything pressure-oriented (like wars), will only add redundancy, which is fine if you're looking for a SAFE build, but it will never be optimal.

Consider that wars, by necessity, have to aggro and switch targets constantly. Consider that wars deal high consistent damage, but don't deliver well over 250 damage in less than a second of acquiring the target. These things make it impossible for a warrior to surpass a caster in a discord team.

Try saying aloud to yourself, "C-Ctrl-space 1234dead." That's how long it takes a caster to acquire a target, kill it, and move on to the next one.

Pressure teams have their own answers-- they're stronger, faster and more durable ones. Lose Discord, you won't miss it.

Daesu · Mar 12, 2010, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Syphonus is right.

Like I have said, you can definitely make Discordway work with your warrior. PvE is not that hard. But doing so is sub optimal since there are better 3-heroes build for a warrior.

With Splinter, SoH, AoE nukes, I dont even need to waste time and precious energy to cast Asuran Scan on every single target just to feed discord. And I dont need to micro my heroes to do that for me either.

If you think that your discordway works well on your warrior, then you should play a necro and compare the results using the necro character's version of discordway. Then you would realize that discordway fits the necro much better. If you keep pushing your warrior's build to work with discordway then his performance would never exceed those of a necro.

It is time to think outside the discordway box and design your 3-heroes around your character rather than the reverse.

swmaster · Mar 31, 2010, 03:45 PM // 15:45

So basically discordway geared more towards casters, not as effective with melee. For your physical toons try these bars out, seemed to work really well for me.

I usually run a es war with sy and fgj, but any bar with sy and fgj and aoe will work nicely.

OABDUshnSyBVBbhoB2BlBWCVVA <--AoTL MoP Minion Bomber

OAhjQwGYoOUihGXoqKNncjzLGA <--OoV Blood Bond Resto Healer

OAOj4wiM5MXTMm3kZS9dJzjLGA <--Simple SoS SoH rit to spam splinter and ancestors as well as smite hex and smite condi

Bars could probably use a little tweaking and what not, if you have any ideas hit me up with em. I'd like to see what more you could do with these

Also asuran scan isn't necessary for a hammer warrior, the kd spamming would be enough if you know how to pull and ball like a good warrior should

Hugh Manatee · Apr 02, 2010, 01:07 PM // 13:07

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Originally Posted by syphonus

The argument that Discord is as efficient on a frontliner as a caster is only made by people that haven't tried it as a caster, and just assume that they can't do it better.

I have, and it works about the same, the only difference being, as said, casters are glass cannons, you need the necro trio set up with overkill defense n/rts with maybe one as an n/mo for prots and hex busting. Warriors have SY!, you can drop all that extra defense for melee support like SoH, splinter, orders, or whatever, drop the eexpensive PvE single target crap and fufill the roll of the vanguard sin, take agro and knocklock stuff yourself with a hammer.

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There simply isn't a comparison. A caster applies both a condition and a hex in 3/4 of a second at range, followed by a 200 damage spike via Finish Him-- all while keeping the target knocklocked with YMLaD and EVAS. It is then instantly recharged when the target expires, allowing for it to be done all over again immediately. That doesn't even factor in the damage from Discord.

My warrior can apply the hex in 0 seconds(it's actually 1/4 I think, either way, it's fast and cheap), apply(and re-apply, which is a factor vs stuff with resistance, wurms, tyrian bosses ect) the condition while knocklocking the whole mob, including annoying redundant healers, and apply about that much damage to the whole wad witht he way I have my guys set up(splinter+crude+whirl+SoH+scan). In my case it's better to have the agro focused on me, since I can bowl the whole thing down in 1 or 2 shots like that.

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Because it IS a spike build, you should be concentrating on furthering the spike to make it more efficient, NOT the pressure. A spike team with a bad spike is garbage, as you can already see yourself at Master of Damage. Therefore, anything that assists with making Discord spike harder and faster contributes to the build; anything pressure-oriented (like wars), will only add redundancy, which is fine if you're looking for a SAFE build, but it will never be optimal.

If you're on a warrior, and you're in pve and you can't figure out how to spike with it continuously, you're doing warrior wrong... A hammer with SoH, scan, any AoE melee attack, backed up by inspirational speech can unload at will and instantly recharge itself.

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Consider that wars, by necessity, have to aggro and switch targets constantly. Consider that wars deal high consistent damage, but don't deliver well over 250 damage in less than a second of acquiring the target. These things make it impossible for a warrior to surpass a caster in a discord team.

With scan, I hit about that hard on single targets, and with the new crude, auspisious, whirling and the classic "erfshakur" I can pretty much do the whole mob about that hard if I line em up right, WHILE my necroes spike the hell out of the scanned target, then apply the rest of their bag of tricks in the brief downtime, setting up the spare so to speak. With erfshakur, I only need to tag 1 guy, then they fall apart.

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With Splinter, SoH, AoE nukes, I dont even need to waste time and precious energy to cast Asuran Scan on every single target just to feed discord. And I dont need to micro my heroes to do that for me either.

0 cast time hex ftw, and again, auspicious blow is broken, free juice, unblockable and good damage. You don't really need to micro, you just call the scan on the first guy, hit it while you unload on all the guys balled on you, the team D-spikes, then start doing whatever they do, your first guy should be hyper dead and you should be fully charged for unload #2, everything should be half dead and lubed up, you should be able to drop another guy or 2 before Discord recharges, and when it does anything left standing dies.

and again, all the stuff you just mentioned, aoe, soh, splinter, none of it is an elite skill, and all of it would fit just fine on a N/x. Before they broke SoS, and all the rit crap, and buffed AotL, even before RoJ, this is how I did stuff and it worked.

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If you think that your discordway works well on your warrior, then you should play a necro and compare the results using the necro character's version of discordway. Then you would realize that discordway fits the necro much better. If you keep pushing your warrior's build to work with discordway then his performance would never exceed those of a necro.

As said above, caster=glass cannon, and I did, and I've done better squishing on my warrior, as said, it's the one getting closer to gwamm. Though to be honest, you can pretty much do anything you want with save yourself and erfshakur, it's just discord kills shit.

I have had good results with A/P zenmai and anton, they will spam inspirational speech on you while unloading whatever I have on them, and you can get razah with with SoH and SoS and channeling, this only works in 6+ because you need a healer stooge.

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It is time to think outside the discordway box and design your 3-heroes around your character rather than the reverse

Again, discord for a warrior, is sabway with different elites, re-read how I came about this:

I did most of this before they went and broke roj, sos, aotl and such, it still works since they haven't nerfed discord itself(if it aint broke, don't fix it...). Back then, spiteful wasn't hurting enough with my scan+hammer fetish(stuff on the ground doesn't do much), i didn't need a defense elite on the healing n/rt(i had been using icy veins instead of a resto elite), and jaggs wasn't necessary in the areas I was squishing so I just set all the sabway guys elites to discord, tweaked the MM away from a bomber, kept the rest of the bars with mostly the same melee support modifications I made and it worked, and it's flexible enough to be tweaked on the fly.

I was already spamming asuran scan and smashing stuff for like 150-200+ with every hit on my E-Smash drunken master hammer bar. I needed a way to keep the juice up and stumbled into withering aura+auspicious blow creaminess(i didn't have to cause the weakness myself anymore, it freed up a slot). Since crude swing is AoE and I was using counter blow to knock lock, I added SoH to a N/Mo and splinter to an N/rt and then realized I how awesome the AI was with inspirational speech and Find Their Weakness! and set one as an N/P, meaning I could go everywhere fully juiced, and maintain it with the AoE attack crude, I could then drop e-smash for earth shaker, dropped counter for something else(better to drop the whole mob continuously, then spike it to hell all at once, it's like meteor shower almost, but they get hit constantly, and for way more and faster then fire AoE).

Then I realized I was squishing old ascalon's stone elemetals and whatever, didn't need the jagg bomber, or weapon of remedy, and since as said erfshakur'd stuff doesn't do a whole hell of a lot SS was useless and the healing hands grawl and dual shiverpeak protectors were giving me grief(minions and AoE pulses were actually healing them), I just took the highest spiking thing that I could then(which was discord), since I had all the hexes, and conditions to work it and gorramit did it work. After I just didn't care to invest in the equipment to switch, discord was never nerfed, it just kept working.

Since the RoJ buff I've sometimes put a Mo/P where the N/Mo is(mostly where you have to take dunk/talk or where there's undead), but it's energy gets tight, soul reaping is better on something damage oriented and the necro curse toys were more fun then the monk smiting toys. Recently I've added AotL back to to the N/P, since level 21 minions are really cool, and added an SoS/resto Rt/mo or Rt/p where the N/rt was, it's working out well, but since they haven't directly nerfed Discord, it still does work if you need single target spiking(as in the last guy in a dungeon, an annoying multi-healer situation like aforementioned stupid grawl or shiverpeak protectors, a thing that hits hard and must die fast, like tin doa kai neg or a djin ele boss ect).

Without auspicious, earth shaker and crude swing, this wouldn't work as well as it does. Axes don't have anything that gives energy as fast as a hammer can now short of a zealous axe, swords have knee cutter, but that sucks, too hard to cripple stuff, and neither has earth shaker. You'd have to use war's endurance, not a bad option, but that's your elite, and hammers just own. As said, all you need to work discord is a cheap hex, and a cheap condition, and the ability to maintain them. Earth Shaker warrior buffed by withering aura to spam conditions, using crude swing and auspicious blow buffed by splinter and SoH to charge and damage, scan to mark, call and spike and SY! to defend the party, can pin every foe down so they can't retaliate while your team does the job of taking them apart 1 at a time.

Daesu · Apr 02, 2010, 03:15 PM // 15:15

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Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Warriors have SY!, you can drop all that extra defense for melee support like SoH, splinter, orders, or whatever, drop the eexpensive PvE single target crap and fufill the roll of the vanguard sin, take agro and knocklock stuff yourself with a hammer.

And that is part of the problem. Discord IS single target crap! Splinter, however, is AoE. What is more? Splinter does 0 damage to the target itself.

And orders? For Devona and you? How many physicals do you actually have in your team when all 3 of your heroes are casters? Orders is expensive, so if you bring orders you should have a few physicals in your team that can make use of it. How expensive is an Order? 17% life sac and 10e every 5s. 17% life sac means if your hero has 600hp, he loses 102hp every 5s not counting any damage he receives from monsters. If you have 2 orders (e.g. OOP+DF), it is double that cost (20e, 204hp for a 600hp hero) about every 5s.

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My warrior can apply the hex in 0 seconds(it's actually 1/4 I think, either way, it's fast and cheap), apply(and re-apply, which is a factor vs stuff with resistance, wurms, tyrian bosses ect)

And what happens if the hex is removed? My necro brings a cover hex. For your warrior, you have to wait 5s for it to recharge or micro your hero. Granted 5s is not that long of a time but using another 5e on your target is still a strain on your warrior's limited energy pool. Besides by 5s, my necro would have probably eliminated the target already anyway.

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the condition while knocklocking the whole mob, including annoying redundant healers, and apply about that much damage to the whole wad witht he way I have my guys set up(splinter+crude+whirl+SoH+scan).

Again you are talking about AoE attacks/effects but discord is not AoE focused. It is single target focused. No matter how much AoE damage you deal, discord would still prefer that hexed+conditioned target to die fast before the hexes/conditions on it, expire.

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In my case it's better to have the agro focused on me, since I can bowl the whole thing down in 1 or 2 shots like that.

If you have agro focused on you, then there is no need for so many minions now would it? But notice that pvx discordway has 2 MMs! Besides if you already have agro focused on you, wouldn't a high damage AoE team build (e.g. RoJ) work better?

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If you're on a warrior, and you're in pve and you can't figure out how to spike with it continuously, you're doing warrior wrong... A hammer with SoH, scan, any AoE melee attack, backed up by inspirational speech can unload at will and instantly recharge itself.

Again, you are talking about AoE attacks. AoE attacks and discordway shouldn't exist in the same context because discordway is not a hero build you want for AoE attacks. Discord is a SINGLE targeting, fast recharge, attack and that is what makes it work well on single targets because your necro heroes would be busy casting discord until that target dies. Discord works best if the specific hexed/conditioned target is killed asap.

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With scan, I hit about that hard on single targets, and with the new crude, auspisious, whirling and the classic "erfshakur" I can pretty much do the whole mob about that hard if I line em up right, WHILE my necroes spike the hell out of the scanned target, then apply the rest of their bag of tricks in the brief downtime, setting up the spare so to speak. With erfshakur, I only need to tag 1 guy, then they fall apart.

0 cast time hex ftw, and again, auspicious blow is broken, free juice, unblockable and good damage. You don't really need to micro, you just call the scan on the first guy, hit it while you unload on all the guys balled on you, the team D-spikes, then start doing whatever they do, your first guy should be hyper dead and you should be fully charged for unload #2, everything should be half dead and lubed up, you should be able to drop another guy or 2 before Discord recharges, and when it does anything left standing dies.

If you are already holding agro well, why should you care about your necro spiking that single target down when it faster to wipe the whole mob with a group of RoJ heroes in the first place.

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As said above, caster=glass cannon, and I did, and I've done better squishing on my warrior, as said, it's the one getting closer to gwamm. Though to be honest, you can pretty much do anything you want with save yourself and erfshakur, it's just discord kills shit.

Sure, caster=glass cannon, which is why discordway has 2 MMs.

If you can already hold agro well with your warrior, Discord wouldn't kill as fast as good armor ignoring AoE attacks.

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Again, discord for a warrior, is sabway with different elites, re-read how I came about this:

Sabway is generic. Discord IS a SINGLE targeting elite that require pre-hexing and pre-conditioning to work. These are tasks that work best for a necro character that does it FROM A DISTANCE.

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..blah..

The problem with discordway and a warrior is the elite, discord itself. But if you take it away, you can no longer call your hero build discordway now can you? Try using SoS and/or RoJ instead on your warrior's heroes. With level 14 channeling a SoS rit can give a stronger splinter weapon and AR (which works well with a melee) or even Spirit's Rift. If energy is a problem with your RoJ heroes then add energy management skills, otherwise you can always fall back on N/Mos. Smiting skills like SoH and RoD have synergy to a melee character.

syphonus · Apr 02, 2010, 05:52 PM // 17:52

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Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Again, discord for a warrior, is sabway with different elites

Exactly.

You already know intuitively that Discordway is single target shit-- that's why all of your changes have been to complement war pressure damage! This is stepping in the right direction. However, you are holding yourself back by limiting your heroes to an elite that does nothing for you.

What do you stand to gain? Remember that MoD tests show conclusively that discord does awful damage. It has no purpose outside of single target spikes.

What do you stand to lose? A whole lot. It means that every hero must be N primary or secondary. You have very few options for team compression and specialization-- multiple attribute splits, inefficient primaries, little versatility, and for what? Discord? You're holding yourself inside the team build box, like Daesu said. But I can tell you want out.

FoxBat · Apr 02, 2010, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I'll agree with Hugh that at the time, before ER, Spirits, RoJ etc, there was no reason not to use discord on a sabwayish build, and the results are decent. What others here are trying to tell though is that time has passed, and we can do better now.

Daesu · Apr 02, 2010, 07:46 PM // 19:46

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Originally Posted by FoxBat

I'll agree with Hugh that at the time, before ER, Spirits, RoJ etc, there was no reason not to use discord on a sabwayish build, and the results are decent. What others here are trying to tell though is that time has passed, and we can do better now.

Right, and this is another reason to consider other builds. With all the buffs going into channeling skills and spirits, there is no good reason not to consider this over discord. It is understandable that discordway doesn't make use of these buffs because it was created BEFORE the buffs happened. In the same way, Sabway was created BEFORE the buff to Discord itself.

Sure you can always stick to an old build and it would probably still work well enough, but why not consider the best, latest build instead? On top of that, for a warrior, discordway doesn't fit as well as for a caster. I have explained this in my post above.

Hugh Manatee · May 01, 2010, 02:49 PM // 14:49

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Originally Posted by Daesu

And that is part of the problem. Discord IS single target crap! Splinter, however, is AoE. What is more? Splinter does 0 damage to the target itself.

Crude swing FTW! You don't seem to get, I'm not knockng single target crap or AoE crap, I'm saying I have BOTH. Unless you get lucky and stuff bunches up on the sin-in-a-can and can get a few MoP hits before your target dies, you don't have that option with the AP caller. Me and my hammer otoh I get stuff bunched keep it there and do obscene AoE knocklockng and damage while the artillery in the back tears up big threats. Then in the 2 seconds discord is recharging they hex stuff, raise minions, put out death nova on said minions or whatever I put on them while I hammer stuff, then the next salvo.

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And orders? For Devona and you? How many physicals do you actually have in your team when all 3 of your heroes are casters....

usually I take the eles a monk and a mesmer hench, if it's a mesmer heavy area both monks and 1 ele, sometimes I take the paragon and rangers if they're available. Notice the "whatever" qualifier there. In a caster discord you have to take all that defense, have to, if you have SY! like a warrior should you don't have to and can take physical henchmen and get up close if you want(though I generally don't, I don't think I ever have actually, you could if you wanted to is what I'm getting at.)

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And what happens if the hex is removed...

Same thing that happens if you're necro's hexes get cleaned, only my warrior's bar isn't useless for about 20-30 seconds, I can re-apply the hex in 5 seconds, and thanks to auspicious blow never even get near the bottom of my energy pool(seriously, spish blow is awesome). Simple answer is don't hex stupid stuff till you're ready to kill it(sometimes I start them casting then put the hex on at the last second), though using your own rhetoric discord should be able to kill before any serious hex busting takes place. And typically with an earth shaker front line, not much is standing up to wipe the hexes(your discord caller has only the 2 single target KDs). Even if there is I can take an extra AoE decoy hex, have it cast first while I'm rounding up the targets, then target the big hex when i'm ready.

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Again you are talking about AoE attacks/effects but discord is not AoE focused. It is single target focused. No matter how much AoE damage you deal, discord would still prefer that hexed+conditioned target to die fast before the hexes/conditions on it, expire.

And they do, it's just extremely useful in old ascalon where you have mobs with 2-3 udolytes or martyrs and in the shiver peakes where you have 2-3 protectors and such to be able to KD everything and do your AoE while your guys fry 1 target to hell then join you in the AoE then instagib another guy. If I can get my guys guaranteed 1 kill every 2-4 seconds while I'm AoE raping everything, what's not to love?

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If you have agro focused on you, then there is no need for so many minions now would it? But notice that pvx discordway has 2 MMs! Besides if you already have agro focused on you, wouldn't a high damage AoE team build (e.g. RoJ) work better?

Another thing you're not getting IM NOT USING THE PVX BAR, I ONLY HAVE 1 MINION MASTER, IF THAT, AND IT'S THERE TO BOMB STUFF... and again I DO HAVE AOE STUFF, I HAVE THE BEST AOE STUFF IN THE GAME, I HAVE MOP, I HAVE SPLINTER, I HAVE SoH BUFFED CRUDE+WHIRLING WITH EARTH SHAKER. I also have the best single target damage in the game too. Yay for me. RoJ sucks unless there's undead(when there was, I had used word of censure pre buff, kinda discord for undead stuff, post I did use RoJ for shards and such) and it's got to long a recharge like most of the other elite AoE stuff for my pace. Even though mop has 30 seconds when it is up it will out do roj. Also I can take a ele hench just about anywhere, why waste a hero slot on a hench job.

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Again, you are talking about AoE attacks. AoE attacks and discordway shouldn't exist in the same context because discordway is not a hero build you want for AoE attacks. Discord is a SINGLE targeting, fast recharge, attack and that is what makes it work well on single targets because your necro heroes would be busy casting discord until that target dies. Discord works best if the specific hexed/conditioned target is killed asap.

It has 2 seconds of downtime, more then enough for auxiliary hexes and additional damage to go out after target #1 dies asap. thing is while they're csting in this window targets #2 and #3 should be dead or near it. Like I keep saying, this is how I took those stupid redundant HH+heal other udolyte grawls and protectors(maguuma and shiverpeak, I once drew 3 freaking maguuma protectors in the dry top, running a bar like you're talking about, the SOBs wouldn't die, kept running off at HM speed and scattering, took way to long chasing them I gave up, re-zoned and brought me old boys out, rolled the zone like it was NM)

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If you are already holding agro well, why should you care about your necro spiking that single target down when it faster to wipe the whole mob with a group of RoJ heroes in the first place.

I didn't have RoJ for the udolytes and protectors and other mobs with multiple healers and it probably wouldn't have done much good. Single target spiking is the only thing that took those things down, and earth shaker made the rest of the zone easy.

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Sure, caster=glass cannon, which is why discordway has 2 MMs.

If you can already hold agro well with your warrior, Discord wouldn't kill as fast as good armor ignoring AoE attacks.

Only elite armor ignoring AoE is RoJ as far as I can remember, and I have splinter, crude, whirling, MoP, death novas ect.(I could have balth's aura on one of the necs if I wanted it, they have the energy from soul reaping to support it)

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Sabway is generic. Discord IS a SINGLE targeting elite that require pre-hexing and pre-conditioning to work. These are tasks that work best for a necro character that does it FROM A DISTANCE.

Sabway is so generic you can take all the elites out and put discord there, take asuran scan and any cheap condition and it works just fine.

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The problem with discordway and a warrior is the elite, discord itself. But if you take it away, you can no longer call your hero build discordway now can you? Try using SoS and/or RoJ instead on your warrior's heroes. With level 14 channeling a SoS rit can give a stronger splinter weapon and AR (which works well with a melee) or even Spirit's Rift. If energy is a problem with your RoJ heroes then add energy management skills, otherwise you can always fall back on N/Mos. Smiting skills like SoH and RoD have synergy to a melee character.

Without summon spirits, sos sucks unless you're defending in a mission, I move to often for even the 20-30 second down times(also the heroes are morons with placement...), and like you said smiting monks manage juice for crap, even with castigation and glyph of lesser, and I could just take other, non-elite AoE on a necro chassis and keep my single target artillery.

Daesu · May 01, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

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Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Crude swing FTW! You don't seem to get, I'm not knockng single target crap or AoE crap, I'm saying I have BOTH. Unless you get lucky and stuff bunches up on the sin-in-a-can and can get a few MoP hits before your target dies, you don't have that option with the AP caller. Me and my hammer otoh I get stuff bunched keep it there and do obscene AoE knocklockng and damage while the artillery in the back tears up big threats. Then in the 2 seconds discord is recharging they hex stuff, raise minions, put out death nova on said minions or whatever I put on them while I hammer stuff, then the next salvo.

Congratulations that you get stuff bunched and have all the KDs that you need, same with the other warriors with similar builds. Now, that you have your monsters bunched together, you can use your discord heroes to kill uh...one at a time? Or you can just cast strong AoE spells, like RoJ, and be done. Do you see my point?

Look here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html Note that thread was created later than my last reply to you about using RoJ heroes for your warrior.

Also, I dont know why you keep saying how great your warrior bar is with its aoe attacks and KDs and therefore discordway is great for a warrior, when discordway doesn't even contribute to your aoe attacks or KDs for that matter. I got news for you, you still get those even with another 3-heroes build as long as your warrior has the same skill bar!

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Same thing that happens if you're necro's hexes get cleaned, only my warrior's bar isn't useless for about 20-30 seconds, I can re-apply the hex in 5 seconds, and thanks to auspicious blow never even get near the bottom of my energy pool(seriously, spish blow is awesome).

Again, that has nothing to do with discordway.

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And they do, it's just extremely useful in old ascalon where you have mobs with 2-3 udolytes or martyrs and in the shiver peakes where you have 2-3 protectors and such to be able to KD everything and do your AoE

Again, which KD skills do your discord heroes have?

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while your guys fry 1 target to hell then join you in the AoE then instagib another guy. If I can get my guys guaranteed 1 kill every 2-4 seconds while I'm AoE raping everything, what's not to love?

Again, I think your AoE attacks + RoJ would work even better than your AoE attacks + single target discord.

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Another thing you're not getting IM NOT USING THE PVX BAR, I ONLY HAVE 1 MINION MASTER, IF THAT, AND IT'S THERE TO BOMB STUFF... and again I DO HAVE AOE STUFF, I HAVE THE BEST AOE STUFF IN THE GAME, I HAVE MOP, I HAVE SPLINTER, I HAVE SoH BUFFED CRUDE+WHIRLING WITH EARTH SHAKER.

And you also have single targeting discord, otherwise it wouldn't be called discordway. Sure, it would still work if you take your own sweet time to hold aggro and let your discord heroes pick them off one at a time but that is just not optimal.

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Yay for me. RoJ sucks unless there's undead(when there was, I had used word of censure pre buff, kinda discord for undead stuff, post I did use RoJ for shards and such) and it's got to long a recharge like most of the other elite AoE stuff for my pace. Even though mop has 30 seconds when it is up it will out do roj. Also I can take a ele hench just about anywhere, why waste a hero slot on a hench job.

Really? Then feel free to beat the guy's timing with your discord heroes in Forgewight (see above link).

MoP is fine provided you micro it. The argument again, is discord vs roj heroes. Which is more suitable for a warrior?

I think you should put that to the test and lets see how fast you can clear HM dungeons with your discordway. Let me quote trcvrs:

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Originally Posted by trcvrs

So here's the idea. We all know PvE is easy 99% of areas are possible with discordway blah blah blah. But how about putting your money (or pride) where you mouth is?

If discordway is a better 3-heroes team for a warrior, then prove it! Go beat his RoJ (which you claimed sucks) heroes timing with your warrior and prove us all wrong.

Arrogant Bastard · May 01, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

If you are using Discordway on a melee, you are doing it wrong.

Honestly, Discordway is only useful on maybe Eles, Monks, and possibly Mesmers (and even then, spiritway is a far better "generic" build).

If you actually stopped holding Discordway as some infallible sacred cow, then maybe you'd realize that melee (especially warriors) have options that make Discordway look like shit.

Seriously, you could spike every target with AP YMLAD EVAS + DISCORD...or you could blow them all up with a single WW on a 100b warrior.

AtomicMew · May 02, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

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Originally Posted by syphonus

The argument that Discord is as efficient on a frontliner as a caster is only made by people that haven't tried it as a caster, and just assume that they can't do it better.

There simply isn't a comparison. A caster applies both a condition and a hex in 3/4 of a second at range, followed by a 200 damage spike via Finish Him-- all while keeping the target knocklocked with YMLaD and EVAS. It is then instantly recharged when the target expires, allowing for it to be done all over again immediately. That doesn't even factor in the damage from Discord.

Consider that the purpose of a Discord team is to do as much damage as possible, in as little time possible, to a single target. This shouldn't be rocket science. To see for yourself, try using a 3-hero discord team at MoD. You'll find that your team actually deals absurdly low DPS, in comparison with spiritway or almost anything else! To put things in perspective, a single sin with no outside buffs can deal more damage than this entire team. With an AP caller 1234'ing the bastard. By a longshot.

Why does it make sense? How could a build be so insanely popular when it does shit damage?

I've already said the answer-- Discord is a spike team rather than a pressure team. Ok, you get nominal AoE pressure damage through the MM and MoP, EVAS etc. but respectively this doesn't amount to much-- considering that with a caller it takes about the same time to kill a target at half health as it takes to kill one at full health(~2 seconds).

Because it IS a spike build, you should be concentrating on furthering the spike to make it more efficient, NOT the pressure. A spike team with a bad spike is garbage, as you can already see yourself at Master of Damage. Therefore, anything that assists with making Discord spike harder and faster contributes to the build; anything pressure-oriented (like wars), will only add redundancy, which is fine if you're looking for a SAFE build, but it will never be optimal.

Consider that wars, by necessity, have to aggro and switch targets constantly. Consider that wars deal high consistent damage, but don't deliver well over 250 damage in less than a second of acquiring the target. These things make it impossible for a warrior to surpass a caster in a discord team.

Try saying aloud to yourself, "C-Ctrl-space 1234dead." That's how long it takes a caster to acquire a target, kill it, and move on to the next one.

Pressure teams have their own answers-- they're stronger, faster and more durable ones. Lose Discord, you won't miss it.

Very well said.

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Originally Posted by Daesu

It is time to think outside the discordway box

And into the spiritway box!

IMO, the easiest argument (but not necessarily best argument) to make against discord with a warrior is the existence of spiritway. Spiritway has way more damage, way more defense and doesn't require hex/condition. It's honestly just better in every way for physicals.

Daesu · May 02, 2010, 08:19 PM // 20:19

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Originally Posted by trcvrs

And into the spiritway box!

IMO, the easiest argument (but not necessarily best argument) to make against discord with a warrior is the existence of spiritway. Spiritway has way more damage, way more defense and doesn't require hex/condition. It's honestly just better in every way for physicals.

I agree spiritway is better for physicals relative to discordway.

But for my warrior I dont use spiritway either. I only bring 1 rit hero mostly for the splinter and AR. The elite happens to be SoS because it is the channeling elite that makes the most sense to bring. That is all the spirits I bring along. Maybe I bring Life too but that is secondary.

With careful pull and aggro, a warrior works best with AoE damage, not single targeting spells that require first a hex and a condition on the target. That is my main issue against discordway for a warrior. Discordway can still work with a warrior, it is pve afterall, but it is just sub optimal.

RoJ works well with a warrior too and I used to run that. But I am too lazy to pull, hold aggro, and micro so I go for the easier build most of the time.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...64&postcount=1

syphonus · May 03, 2010, 12:59 AM // 00:59

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Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

You don't seem to get, I'm not knockng single target crap or AoE crap, I'm saying I have BOTH

The problem is, no matter which way you look at it, you still have crap.

:shrug:

Conventional wisdom says that a balanced team incorporates both spike and pressure damage. Conventional wisdom is wrong, and has been since the days of the very first speed clears. Sab made this even more apparent by popularizing the concept of team synergy in hero setups.

The philosophy behind synergy is that the sum of a teams' skills/heroes/players will be greater than the sum of each of its parts, by complimenting each other. Fundamentally, synergy is nothing more than exploiting game mechanics as efficiently as possible. You can't argue against synergy any more than you can argue against mathematics.

Hugh Manatee · May 24, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Congratulations that you get stuff bunched and have all the KDs that you need, same with the other warriors with similar builds. Now, that you have your monsters bunched together, you can use your discord heroes to kill uh...one at a time? Or you can just cast strong AoE spells, like RoJ, and be done. Do you see my point?

I've seen the AI bomb some random ranger spirit with RoJ over a good cluster, or waste it on the 1 thing that gets out of the cluster or go dry moving from mob to mob. The reason I don't like RoJ is the recharge, even if it's micro'd, if they nuke wrong or something does go tits up waiting 20 seconds between nukes is too long for me. Even if it does go right I'm on to the next mob quick as I can, RoJ or SoS may not be available. I do enough AoE between splinter, SoH, MoP and whatever nuke hench I take, having the ability to kill 1 thing very quickly is useful. Like annoying healers or strong bosses while the rest of the mob is getting ground pounded.

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Also, I dont know why you keep saying how great your warrior bar is with its aoe attacks and KDs and therefore discordway is great for a warrior, when discordway doesn't even contribute to your aoe attacks or KDs for that matter. I got news for you, you still get those even with another 3-heroes build as long as your warrior has the same skill bar!

My hammer's damage and KDs are awesome but as said, swapping out the elites in a sabway bar proved more useful then tossing the bars entirely. I still wanted SoH, MoP, a few minions to go boom, splinter and whatnot on the soul reaping powered chassis, but I needed the ability to pile on 300+ all at once VS certain enemies, like the aforementioned grawl and centaur protectors, and it worked extremely well and was the best option for a while and is still very viable for easy squishing and dungeon crawling.

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Again, that has nothing to do with discordway.

Then why even bring up the scenario?

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Again, which KD skills do your discord heroes have?

I have the KD, the heroes make sure what needs to die, does so while supporting my damage output.

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Again, I think your AoE attacks + RoJ would work even better than your AoE attacks + single target discord.

In my experience recently, running 1 RoJ smiter, 1 SoS channeling and either a MM or wild card, in practice, it's been about an even trade off. The ray is good if the AI hits it or I micro, but as said, 20 seconds if it fails, misses or gets interrupted. The spirits just target WTF ever, rarely focusing damage and razah is a moron at placement and casting. The minion master is and always has been awesome. The RoJ thing you're advocating may look ok on paper but it has flaws in practice like discord does.

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And you also have single targeting discord, otherwise it wouldn't be called discordway. Sure, it would still work if you take your own sweet time to hold aggro and let your discord heroes pick them off one at a time but that is just not optimal.

I between me and my heroes non-elite, yet awesome stuff I have enough AoE to jack a mob to death in a few seconds, enough to let then take at least 1 single target spike.

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Honestly, Discordway is only useful on maybe Eles, Monks, and possibly Mesmers (and even then, spiritway is a far better "generic" build).

The difference between a caster discord caller and a warrior discord caller is the caster has to have like 20 some odd skill slots in the party dedicated to defense and can only Knocklock and spike 1 target at a time while the heroes ensure the death of the target. The warrior can dedicate more slots to offense since it can give the party 100AL and can Knocklock and spike SEVERAL targets at a time(likely killing or nearly killing several) while the heroes ensure the death of at least 1 high value target. I dunno... more offense, more defense, and more KD... seems creamy to me...

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Seriously, you could spike every target with AP YMLAD EVAS + DISCORD...or you could blow them all up with a single WW on a 100b warrior

Or.... I could do both. I really, really like earthshaker and hammers in general, but there's nothing stopping you from taking a sword and 100 blades and literally MoPping up using discord to quickly pop stragglers. That's how I did the jotun dungeon and squished yeti infested areas a long long time ago.